< Home < HF-Chat ~ HF Decides 2008. Who will U vote for?

ross · : 09-10-2008, 10:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mdg1976

That arguement is TIRED. It didn't work for Kerry in '04 and it doesn't work now.

It's not an argument so much as it is a fact. That crew was waiting for an excuse to get into Iraq, and when 9/11 came along they had their Pearl Harbor. Rumsfeld's memo urging his subordinates to find a connection between 9/11 and Saddam has been in the public record for years now.

And it's not just about nukes. It's about money, allegiances, land, etc...hegemony is really what it's about. We went to Iraq less because it was a threat to us, and more because we knew we'd be creating a slush fund of American dollars for our corporate class to plunder - and they did. What's good for the American elite is good for America is good for the world...

Brady, as a military man you should know that Iran does not have the capability to deliver a nuke. The nightmare scenario of some rogue jihadi putting a nuke into his pocket that he stole from Iran is just silly...Iran can't even launch a normal missile without the UK/US knowing about it. Even nations that already have nukes, such as Israel, lack our capabilities to actually deliver and strike. It's not about platforms on terra firma anyway, those have been obsolete for years. It's all about subs and Iran just does not have that kind of money/manpower/anything.

And the Iranians are not totally insane. They are open to backdoor, private negotiations (one example involving the UK stands out to me) but since we have no formal relations with them, they make thunderous pronouncements in the news to impress their own folks and scare Americans. Kind of like North Korea.

Cez1029 · : 09-10-2008, 10:25 PM

^
nicely put

ri0tp00f · : 09-10-2008, 10:29 PM

I was waiting for ross to come to this thread

ross · : 09-10-2008, 10:30 PM

^I've been waiting my entire life for you Spence

avatar · : 09-10-2008, 10:36 PM

"love it or leave it?"

the people running over the constitution can leave it. i stand for what this country was founded on - you do not

oh and chomsky is a nutball who supported pol pot.

mearsheimer ftw

bradyma4 · : 09-10-2008, 10:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by avatar

"love it or leave it?"

the people running over the constitution can leave it. i stand for what this country was founded on - you do not

oh and chomsky is a nutball who supported pol pot.

mearsheimer ftw

Explain to me again what exactly it was that this country was founded on that you stand for.

bradyma4 · 12:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ross

Brady, as a military man you should know that Iran does not have the capability to deliver a nuke. The nightmare scenario of some rogue jihadi putting a nuke into his pocket that he stole from Iran is just silly...Iran can't even launch a normal missile without the UK/US knowing about it. Even nations that already have nukes, such as Israel, lack our capabilities to actually deliver and strike. It's not about platforms on terra firma anyway, those have been obsolete for years. It's all about subs and Iran just does not have that kind of money/manpower/anything.

Ross, with all do respect, the taliban didnt need a nuke and look at the damage they did.

Isreal does have capabilities to deliver a nuke, they are aledgedly the world's sixth most powerful nuclear state, with a stockpile of more than 100 nuclear weapons and with the components and ability to build atomic, neutron and hydrogen bombs.

As you stated, I am a veteran but that doesnt mean that i think McCains POW statis is what qualifies his to be President. I have a deep respect for the man and think that his military experience in general along with the honor, courage, and commitment that serving our great country developes in a man is what make him the most qualified candidate.

I guess we will just have to agree to disagree.

Krystaleahs · : 09-11-2008, 12:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cez1029

I'm all about disarming Nukes. Who are we to say we can have Nukes but no one else can. That's hypocrisy.

Krys thanks for that link, I'll have to check that site out more.

http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/Read.aspx?GUID={A91FEE10-D98F-4EAA-8CA5-73DCD65234D2}

I have one more on Iraq's WMD's being moved/check out the satellite pics

Iraq\\\'s Weapons of Mass Destruction, WMD in Syria

ross · : 09-11-2008, 12:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by avatar

mearsheimer ftw

Is that the same Mearshimer who co-authored the controversial paper on the Israeli Lobby? I'm just curious, this is not a loaded question.

Quote:

Originally Posted by bradyma4

Ross, with all do respect, the taliban didnt need a nuke and look at the damage they did.

Isreal does have capabilities to deliver a nuke, they are the world's sixth most powerful nuclear state, with a stockpile of more than 100 nuclear weapons and with the components and ability to build atomic, neutron and hydrogen bombs.

With all due respect, 9/11 is proof that the nuclear age is passe. No one wants nuclear war, and anyone (aside from the United States) who uses nukes can count on their own destruction.

As long as our foreign policy functions the way it does, we will continue to see terror attacks launched against our citizens and our interests across the globe. Terrorism is a fact of life now, not something to be vanquished if we'd only elect the right leaders and blithely hand over all war powers to the executive branch.

Beat poverty, hunger, and injustice, and you have a shot at beating terrorism. But the cart will not come before the horse this time.

Quote:

Originally Posted by bradyma4

As you stated, I am a veteran but that doesnt mean that i think McCains POW statis is what qualifies his to be President. I have a deep respect for the man and think that his military experience in general along with the honor, courage, and commitment that serving our great country developes in a man is what make him the most qualified candidate.

As long as we're speaking frankly here, let me just point out that you basically contradicted yourself. You said that McCain's POW status isn't what's attracted you to him, but rather his military experience in general.

However, his POW status is really the only experience he has. He was 894th out of 899 graduates of the Naval Academy, and he was a below-average pilot. He was shot down in the early stages of the war, and was kept as a POW while his fellow soldiers were actually living the reality on the ground of an unwinnable war.

So, although McCain's POW experience was undoubtedly horrible, trying, and permanently disfiguring to him, he didn't have all that much combat experience. He was never an accomplished soldier; he didn't rise up the ranks and his main experience in wartime is being shot down and spending years in the Hanoi Hilton.

I don't mean to demean the torture and captivity he suffered through, but it's not the same as being on the battlefields, making decisions and rising through the ranks.

bradyma4 · : 09-11-2008, 12:27 AM

You can ramble on and on about anything cant you.
I guess you have to be a veteran to "get it"
nevermind

ross · : 09-11-2008, 12:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bradyma4

You can ramble on and on about anything cant you.
I guess you have to be a veteran to "get it"
nevermind

I prefer to call it "discussion" but I guess that's also a matter of opinion.

Maybe my previous post tested your attention span, so I'll condense it a bit.

McCain's POW experience is just that - a POW experience. He got out of POW camp and the war was over. If he'd been on the ground in Vietnam, learning lessons, making hard choices, and getting promoted because of his competence as a soldier/officer/general, then your comments about his experience, service, and judgment would have more resonance.

Your response was very non-specific. You referred to his "military experience in general," but the sum total of his military experience is graduating 894th out of 899, a laundry list of infractions, being shot down on one of his first missions, then spending some long years in a Vietnamese prison. And that's what we're supposed to elect him on?

avatar · : 09-11-2008, 12:50 AM

ross: yes

Quote:

Originally Posted by bradyma4

Explain to me again what exactly it was that this country was founded on that you stand for.

First Amendment – Establishment Clause, Free Exercise Clause; freedom of speech, of the press, and of assembly; right to petition
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances. lom
Second Amendment – Right to keep and bear arms.
A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.
Third Amendment – Protection from quartering of troops.
No Soldier shall, in time of peace be quartered in any house, without the consent of the Owner, nor in time of war, but in a manner to be prescribed by law.
Fourth Amendment – Protection from unreasonable search and seizure.
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.
Fifth Amendment – due process, double jeopardy, self-incrimination, eminent domain.
No person shall be held to answer for any capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offence to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.
Sixth Amendment – Trial by jury and rights of the accused; Confrontation Clause, speedy trial, public trial, right to counsel
In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the State and district where in the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the Assistance of Counsel for his defense.
Seventh Amendment – Civil trial by jury.
In suits at common law, where the value in controversy shall exceed twenty dollars, the right of trial by jury shall be preserved, and no fact tried by a jury, shall be otherwise re-examined in any court of the United States, than according to the rules of the common law.
Eighth Amendment – Prohibition of excessive bail and cruel and unusual punishment.
Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted.
Ninth Amendment – Protection of rights not specifically enumerated in the Bill of Rights.
The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.
Tenth Amendment – Powers of states and people.
The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people.

bradyma4 · : 09-11-2008, 01:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by avatar

ross: yes

First Amendment – Establishment Clause, Free Exercise Clause; freedom of speech, of the press, and of assembly; right to petition
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances. lom
Second Amendment – Right to keep and bear arms.
A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.
Third Amendment – Protection from quartering of troops.
No Soldier shall, in time of peace be quartered in any house, without the consent of the Owner, nor in time of war, but in a manner to be prescribed by law.
Fourth Amendment – Protection from unreasonable search and seizure.
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.
Fifth Amendment – due process, double jeopardy, self-incrimination, eminent domain.
No person shall be held to answer for any capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offence to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.
Sixth Amendment – Trial by jury and rights of the accused; Confrontation Clause, speedy trial, public trial, right to counsel
In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the State and district where in the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the Assistance of Counsel for his defense.
Seventh Amendment – Civil trial by jury.
In suits at common law, where the value in controversy shall exceed twenty dollars, the right of trial by jury shall be preserved, and no fact tried by a jury, shall be otherwise re-examined in any court of the United States, than according to the rules of the common law.
Eighth Amendment – Prohibition of excessive bail and cruel and unusual punishment.
Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted.
Ninth Amendment – Protection of rights not specifically enumerated in the Bill of Rights.
The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.
Tenth Amendment – Powers of states and people.
The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people.

Thats some good stuff you got there.

I'm sorry for calling you a democrat, cause they only believe in about half of all that.